Hardball
MSNBC
CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC ANCHOR: Earlier today I spoke with former Israeli Prime Minister and currently the Vice Prime Minister of Israel, Shimon Peres. Mr. Vice Prime Minister, yesterday on the program, you told us that Israel would not engage in ground troop action on the Lebanese side of the border. Now we have a new report from the “New York Times” and the “Associated Press” of a skirmish involving the I.D.F. on the Lebanese side. Is there a change in tactic or what's going on now?
SHIMON PERES, ISRAELI DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: No, we don't have the slightest intention to base ourselves again in Lebanon, on the Lebanese land. What we are trying to do is to prevent the Hezbollah from coming back to the border of Israel and deploying their forces in the way of ambushes. That's what they are doing. And we are waiting that the Lebanese will deploy itself along the border, instead of the Hezbollah, in accordance with United Nations resolution.
MATTHEWS: Do you have confidence in the Lebanese army to provide a buffer between your country and Hezbollah?
PERES: No, they won't be a buffer, but they will replace Hezbollah. We don't have the slightest trust in Hezbollah. They converted the border as a train of ambushes, shootings, trying to hijack our people. And we don't want them there. That's also the view of the United Nations.
But the Lebanese army should decide if they are an army. They have 50,000 soldiers. The Hezbollah is six or 7,000 soldiers. Now it's not the Salvation Army. It must be a fighting army — if they want to have an independent Lebanon, only the Lebanese army can provide them with independence. Otherwise, Hezbollah conquers Lebanon in fact.
They don't serve the Lebanese interests. They take orders and missiles from Iran, and they serve the Iranians. It's a foreign body. It's an army within an army. And they should bring an end to it.
MATTHEWS: Do you see any stiffening of the Lebanese government, a resolve that they hadn't had before, to truly be a government over all the territory of Lebanon?
PERES: Not really. I mean, they find it comfortable to declare their weakness. But governments must govern, must defend themselves. Look, the Lebanese came to us and say, “Land for peace.” We gave back all the land. We didn't get a piece of peace, you know? All the time.
MATTHEWS: Is there a way for Israel, unilaterally, to do the job?
Can you, using your fine air force, destroy Hezbollah's striking power?
PERES: That's what we shall try to do. At war, there is no alternative but victory. We don't fight the Lebanese. We are very careful not to hit their infrastructure, and clearly, not to hit their people.
Unfortunately, the Hezbollah has hidden some of their missiles in private homes. And we are telling those persons, gentlemen, “Either you get rid of the missiles or leave your home. But we shall not wait until you will fire the missile over our heads.”
You know, in four or five days, we have had 1,500 missiles, day and night, over the skies of the schools, over the restaurants of Israel. We've behaved with restraint — I hear that some people say its “disproportionate.” Is it proportionate to have 1,500 missiles in five days, and God knows what for? What do they want to achieve?
They are fanatics. They serve the Iranians. They destroy Lebanon. And the prime minister of Lebanon should address himself to them, not to us. We have nothing to ask of Lebanon. We would like to live in peace with Lebanon. We'd like to see an independent, prosperous Lebanon, multinational, multi-religious. They're an excellent candidate to be a good neighbor.
MATTHEWS: What can the United States government do to push the government of Lebanon to accept its responsibilities to govern its entire territories? How can Americans encourage them to be stronger?
PERES: Well, let me first of all say the following. We appreciate very much the position taken by the Americans — the administration, the Congress, the people. Your support is very dear to us, spiritually. And, you know, the right spirit is a very strong weapon as well.
We know that we have to do the fighting. We have never asked in our history an American soldier to fight instead of us. We are small, but we are determined. We are united, and we shall do the job.
The problem of the United States, in my judgment, was two-fold. One, you're engaged in many fronts: in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in North Korea. In Iran, all those evil groups raise their heads. That's one thing. And Americans and President Bush took a very clear position. But, alas, he found the world divided.
The world division created the Iranians strength. I assure you, the minute there will be a unified position by the world, Iran will return to little strength which is rather weak. If I read correctly the map, the president is trying to create a coalition with a united policy vis-a-vis Iran. Iran is the masterminding force, here.
MATTHEWS: Yes, what is the connection between America — our concern — Israel's concern — about a nuclear capacity, a nuclear weapons capacity by Iran, and this attack of Hezbollah? Are they trying to divert world attention from their nuclear program? Or what are they up to, do you think?
PERES: It may be the case because the refusal, or the negative answer of Iran was given on the 11th of July and the attack of the Hezbollah started on the 12th of July. So the proximity in time maybe tells the story. They are serving the Iranians. And the Iranians think that the world will remain divided, and they can make a mockery of it.
They don't give a damn about world public opinion or institutions. But the minute they will understand that there is a responsible world — and Iran is a problem for the world because, if Iran will have nuclear bombs, it will eventually reach the hands of terrorists, as well, as their missiles are going over to terrorist hands. And then how are we going to govern the world?
I mean, if North Korea, Iran, and if the two of them will do, other countries will follow suit. They don't have a choice. Everybody who is fanatic or has money or has a conflict or has a claim will have a nuclear bomb, it will be impossible to run the world in a normal way. For that reason, I think Iran is the world's problem.
I hope the world will unite itself and take the necessary position vis-a-vis Iran. In the meantime, we shall fight against the envoys of Iran here, and we shall win. It's costly, it's painful, but we don't have a choice. And we feel we do the right thing, deeply convinced, and deeply anxious to have peace.
MATTHEWS: One last question, Mr. Peres. Condi Rice, the secretary of State — is she coming to the region?
PERES: That's what I read in the papers, but she will always be welcome. We have the highest respect for her, as I have said, and I repeat it, we have the highest respect and thanks to the Americans for their position, for their support, for their understanding.
We know how difficult it is to fight terrorism, whether it's in America itself or in Iraq or elsewhere. It's not a simple proposition. But we have to fight, and we have to win, and we shall win, all of us, because we represent a responsible future for every person on Earth to remain free and secure.
MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Shimon Peres, vice prime minister of Israel. Thank you very much, sir, for your time.
PERES: Thank you.
Labels: Israel